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The survival of EU Classic may lie in banning Russian IPs

Discussion in 'Archive' started by kuragari, Aug 4, 2015.

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  1. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    Dear Innova,

    I wanted to submit my advice regarding the EU Classic project.

    About myself: I'm currently the #5 Phantom Ranger on Gran Kain. I've been witnessing a lot of the challenges of the server and have seen the playerbase fall dramatically by 80%.

    Based on server population, RU Classic is failing. The playerbase went from from 3-4 servers 16,000 population to 2 servers at 4,000 maximum population and it all happened in February, March, April, May several months into the launch of the project. We can make many speculations as to why this happened but I would like to submit my own hypothesis based on my experiences on RU Classic.

    First, I'd like to give some background on why I think L2 was popular to begin with, how it differs from WoW and why people play games like L2. L2 is a highly competitive MMO at it's core. In WoW players valued feeling like they're in "a different world" and competing quests was more important than, for instance, being the #1 player on the server. L2 does not offer this kind of experience. In L2, what's most important is your class, your level, your equipment and the political movements of your party and clan. Very few players, if any, are playing L2 to kill a few mobs and "pretend they're in the L2 world." Also realize that everyone has already been there. We already know what L2 is like, what some of the top zones for exp, top classes, etc. So what is left? What's left is the competitive nature of L2. For instance, being the #1 Phantom Ranger on the server is what drives a player. Being the #1 clan holding Giran and Aden is what drives the clans, who hold the parties and hold the players. The reason people play L2 is to be a "factor." They want to be in the middle of the interesting wars, the top interesting content and the dramas.

    Second, I'd like to give some background on the types of people in RU Classic. There is a small percentage of players in RU Classic that hold 12-24 hour per day gaming schedules in their constant parties. Often, these players play for RMT. These are people from lower income cities in already low income countries (Russia, Belarus, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Moldova) who can afford to sit for 12-24 hours and not work or go to school because the cost of living is so low and these countries have a culture of their parents supporting their kids well into their 30s. This small percentage of players "no lifers" or "RMTers" dominate the entire server, eat up all of the good content and they're impossible to compete with for the players with jobs, families and responsibilities.

    So back to the situation on RU Classic and why I believe the playerbase fell almost 80%. The vast majority of people in Russia do work, have families and hobbies. These players were in their lvl 30s while the RMTers were already hitting 55-60. The RMTers and no lifers took the top spots in Cruma, DV and later EV.

    Now remember above when I said people play L2 to feel like they are competing? For a game which is only played for competition, when someone physically cannot compete in online time with people who have no job, no life and play the game to RMT, what was there left for that person in L2 Classic? No top clans, parties, spots, or content. The 10% population of no lifers/RMTers of L2 left behind the level 30 guy with a job and a family. Without being able to experience the content, pvp, clans or parties of equal level and without the competition of the server at an equal playing field, that guy no longer has a reason to play. I believe this is why 80% of the players left RU Classic. It was not the grind or the adena. It was the way players who RMT/no-life took the "factor game" away from people who could not play 12-24 hours. RU classic is failing and it's important to at least try not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

    So what can we learn about the RU Classic project? We need to find a way to either penalize 12-24 hour primes or stop those players from playing EU Classic entirely. Overall, being a "factor" in L2 needs to be accessible for EU and NA players who are going to have jobs and families and cannot compete with 12-24 hour Russian primes. The players cannot have fun when the high end content has been taken by the 10% who use L2 as a means of work.

    I am strongly recommending that Innova ban Russian IPs (as well as Russian language) from EU Classic for it's own survival. Simply put, there is no way NA and EU players will stay in L2 when all of the "factor" game / top content will only exist between the Russian speaking players who have come to RMT. If you look at RU Classic as an example, even the casual Russian players quit due to the Russian RMT no-life crowd. Furthermore, RU Classic is at risk as well because if Russian IPs are allowed, many people will leave RU Classic to come to EU Classic. Most of the people who care about L2 RU Classic don't want to see that happen either. These worlds need to be split up. They are not equal.

    If you ask any of the top players or top clans in RU Classic, they will tell you that if Russians are allowed to come to EU Classic, it is already doomed from the start. I hope Innova makes the right decision for the sake of the project.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
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  2. Dianoace

    Dianoace User

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    I Kinda agree to you in this case but I doubt that there will be any Changes or IP bans
     
  3. Lemmers

    Lemmers User

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    This would just be silly.
     
  4. Orcoso

    Orcoso User

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    Dunno which is the worse idea, actually banning the IPs or taking the time to read this gianormous pile of **** the dude turned in to a wall text
     
  5. Norz!

    Norz! User

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    I agree RU will be a pain in the ***. And i'm sure they'll dominate, at least at times. But there are 2 things to take into consideration:

    - EU servers will probably need the RU population to stay alive (I'd like to be wrong, but I believe this project to be viable only if RU, EU and NA play on the same 1, 2 or 3 servers).
    - There are plenty of unemployed people in Europe and N/S America too. This is Lineage2, casual players will never make a name for themselves, or control/dominate anything. That's the way it is.

    Edit: And this is 2015 now, we've seen/done it all in L2 and other games. People wont come play L2C because the game is beautiful, because zomgz we're playing with real people everywhere etc. There are games I can play rather casually, but I don't see the point playing L2 if you're going to get rolled over by everyone and their mothers. And i'm probably not the only one. So yeah, casuals wont have an easy time either way.
     
  6. Maya Reinhartz

    Maya Reinhartz User

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    I'm one of the few that don't necessarily play this game for competing, I just enjoy the setting. While I'd argue we used to be many back in the day I'd agree that the vast majority of players that are still playing the game are here for the competition only, which kinda blows since you'll be PvEing a lot and that will just come off as a chore but oh well, I think the community would benefit greatly from learning how to enjoy everything this game has to offer again, we'd have less people dropping it and more involved members in different things outside of PvP.

    I can't agree with penalties for time invested in-game when your whole's character development is basically time and effort put into it rather than an amount of dailies completed; an IP ban would indeed be better but that'd easily push away the people that are hoping to play with the international community from the countries you mentioned, a few of which have been very active and helpful to us here on the forums.

    Well, tis' definitely a complicated issue, I was able to come to terms with not competing after getting "burnt out" of it and realizing I was playing most of the game as a chore just so I could do a few specific things and that's just sad since I think this game has a lot more to offer than just that. I'm not saying that everyone should come to the same conclusion as I did but rather just throwing some food for thought, maybe reading this will make someone's time in-game feel better.
     
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  7. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    Then just leave and go back to your x90000 private server. This is for people with attention spans who can read :011:.

    Japan Classic and KR Classic already ban foreign IPs and if you bypass the ban and speak English there, they will ban your char. So please explain why it's silly, knowing that 2 out of 3 versions of L2 Classic already actively ban and prohibit other regions?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
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  8. Orcoso

    Orcoso User

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    Well then, this is obviously not the place for people who can think either!

    The game was designed that way, people who invest more time, make the right choices, get the right friends also get more rewards, benefits etc, just like the world you live in.

    Now you wanna ban an entire country, which is a significant part of the players, even during the old days just cuz some of them might wanna RMT? seriously, might as well ban everyone and limit their in game time as well, or not even open the server in europe, since back in the day I met a great number of europeans who RMT, and devoted their entire game strategy on that activity.

    If you want an L2 where time invested doenst matter and RMT doenst exist, you might wanna try that 9000000x private server you mentioned.
     
  9. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    You're pretty slow. You've failed to comprehend anything that I've explained. The most important part you missed is that RU Classic has lost 80% of it's players and is dying. The second part you missed was where I mentioned that I do play a lot, seeing as how I'm a top level PR on Gran Kain. I think it's time for you to go troll somewhere else.
     
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  10. Banana Monsta

    Banana Monsta User

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    Well you clearly went wrong way with your summary, you cant simple ban people for playin 12-24, and obviously casual players who have jobs/families wont be on top with is kinda normal.
    Banning RU IP is also totally wrong even tho our approach to the game is different(not to mention that they are not banning EU also, and its same company).
    50% or even more of players will quit anyway, but not cause of RMTers but cause that they cant keep up the pace, and this is also normal, since majority will be there to contest/dominate.
    I'm fine with even 1k stable online as long as people will show up for epics/mass pvps.

    The other thing is RMT, and obviously our future staff team should do literally anything to keep RMT at minium. But since its RMT and its 2k15 it will exist, same goes for low lvl bots.
     
  11. Orcoso

    Orcoso User

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    Wondering if you ever played on non russian servers.... Some of the biggest allies and huge clans where russians, not just teon, but also on Kain. They got numbers, which means $$ on a p2p game, which means the server can actually make some money and be able to survive for more than 3months.

    There is a better way to prevent this rmt madness you are afraid, instead of just cutting off a huge player base who will bring money and make the servers viable to the company, why not ban the ones RMTing? They will have a lot of work, but even ncsoft US who was ******ed could manage to get SOME of the work done.

    In order to make anything work you need to deal with the problem, not just cut possibly half of the player base, and hope for the best.



    From my experience with L2, I doubt RMT is what is killing the game, since L2 survived a lot more than russian rmt. Remember the bot infestations, dead servers before mergers, korean rmt, numerous adena seller websites.

    If people were afraind of spending money you wouldnt see a gazilion +15 top what ever grade they have now on god, and such enchants levels there were impossible before nc soft started selling safe enchants.
     
  12. zauliuz

    zauliuz User

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    rus classic servers dead because everyone who played win that game. there is nothing to do. thats why koreans every ~half year made new updates. now more than half year same stuff bored. idk, maybe they added loa, toi, catacombs or castle sieges. if not, then there is nothing to do at all except kill mobs until they get blue.
     
  13. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    No one forced them to play 12-24 hours a day until they quit the game. Then everyone else quit because the guys with 12-24 hour primes were so far ahead and the playerbase was falling, morale dropped. This is exactly how they killed RU Classic and they're going to come here and do it unless they're stopped with an IP ban or the amount of online time / primes are reduced by Innova through in game functionality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
  14. Orcoso

    Orcoso User

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    You shouldnt hold your farts, they travel all the way back to your head and ****ty ideas like this will come out of your month.


    They didnt do it to themselves... they paid for a game that is MADE to be played hard core, slow xping, slow adena rate etc, if the company wont come up with new content to keep those players interested that is the companies fault, not the players. Limiting the players online time i wont even bother trying to make you understand why that is stupid, cuz I am sure you tought it throught as soon as you hit enter.


    If you fail to remember, for any reason, including the one previously mentioned, the game has always been like that, everytime a new update would launch game activity would go trought the roof, lots of pvp, lots people xping, invading new areas, then after two months or so it would decline, and just the few hardcore gamers would be on doing the stuff they liked. And some would log in just for events like sieges, raids, olympiads, etc
     
  15. Lemmers

    Lemmers User

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    There are probably a number of reasons why they would ban foreign IPs, and I wouldn't presume to know what those reasons are but I bet they're all silly. I'm sure culture plays a large role, and I'm sure they have a large and devoted enough player base within their borders to allow for a playable population.

    I was mostly talking about your justification for banning Russian IPs from a European server, it is quite silly. That whole post just reeks of passive aggressive blame game for your inability to be better than someone else. And that's kinda funny because that's the very reason that drove the MMORPG genre in the direction it's moving in currently.

    So, let's just assume that every number in your post isn't completely pulled out of the air and treat those numbers as concrete facts. If only 10% of the server population spend 12-24 hours a day farming to RMT, that leaves a pretty large percentage of the population playing the game the way you view it should be played. Why couldn't the 90% who are playing your correct way be playing with and interacting with each other? Did the 10% decide to stop farming to RMT and form big perma red gank squads and sweep the map 12-24 hours every day? You want all Russian IPs banned but then you threw in other countries (Belarus, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Moldova) that are also generalized to fit this 10% group. Should those IPs be banned from connecting to a European sever as well? What about the numerous other people from the many other countries that are going to be playing here that have massive amounts of time to devote to the game?

    Without straight out banning the IPs of entire countries from playing, how would you like the 10%ers to be penalized? Would you like to only have a certain amount of time you're allowed to gain xp per day? Or even only be allowed to leave town/be connected to the server for a certain amount of time a day? How would you decide what the right amount of time would be? If you choose say 4 hours a day, what about the guy that can only squeeze in an hour of playtime every other day, or the weekend only players? Seems pretty unfair for them, those dirty 4 hour a day no lifers are going to drive them out of the server competition.

    There is no logical way to fairly eliminate advantage between players in an open world setting, especially while maintaining that drive Lineage 2 players need that populates the world so interaction occurs. And why would you want to lock everyone from these countries out of the server if the vast majority of the population on Gran Kain doesn't fit your no life RMT category? I sure as hell would like to see as many people supporting this project as possible. I'm not naive enough to believe everyone will stay for 10+ years, but more people obviously means more fun and a potential for a longer server lifespan. Dealing with the RMT thing in a different way is a far better option than telling possibly thousands of people they're not able to play here when our player pool is already limited enough as is. I for one welcome our Russian overlords, PRIVET!
     
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  16. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    As I mentioned, I'm a highly ranked archer on RU Classic and have a large prime. I also play as a top Bishop. So no, I'm not jealous of anyone. Anyways, how is playing 24 hours a day being a "better player?" It's just a different culture which allows them to play that long. It's not even going to be remotely fair for EU / NA players. You're going to leave in a couple of months. Honestly if they read this they would probably laugh at you. They know if they're allowed here, this server is going to ****.

    Yes they did. You don't understand Classic. Karma in Classic doesn't drop items and you don't need to "perma-red." You just eat a scroll of restoration and remove the PK. There are only 3 real spots. Cruma 1-2, DV. These have 3x-10x mobs. These spots were taken by the 12-24 hour RMTers in the beginning. They didn't have to "sweep the map." The only people who could even remotely compete with the RMT side had to switch to their side or get PKed. Oh and to be honest that wasn't even the point of my post. The point isn't that you'll be outcompeted and a lower level. That would be fine on it's own and that's just part of the game. The point is that these dynamics have caused the servers to fail dramatically. This happened. People played 12-24 hours in a row everyday for months, experienced all classic had in 3-4 months, burned everyone and everything out on the game and tanked the entire server.

    There are many ways of handling this problem. The simplest would be to simply ban all Russia and SNG IP addresses (SNG: Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Bulgaria, etc.). A different way could be to limit 8 hours of prime by starting a 5 minute timer. Each time a mob is hit, it removes 5 minutes of allowable exp time at a fixed rate and then for however long they play after that. This would save issues with a player who logs in every once in a while and slaps a few mobs. That's just a starting point. There are many ways to solve the problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
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  17. Alexsaysz

    Alexsaysz User

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    Banning ips will solve nothing, easy to bypass. Same with language.

    Controlling RTM 24/7 (even more than what they are doing in Core right now) would be the way to go. The problem is that innova eu IS going to have to split resources between core and eu classic servers, so unless they invest in hiring more employees (which considering NCsoft situation is unlikeable), the black market is going to be huge, and lot of the NA/EU market is going to be provided by slavic untermensch.
     
  18. kuragari

    kuragari User

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    Innova only bans RMT from bots currently on Classic. They allow RMT from live players by not banning the activity. Banning language works very well. The entire game is predicated on language. That's why JP/KR Classic ban based on language. If you speak English there, ban hammer. So the only ones who would really get through are 100% English speakers who VPN, that would heavily reduce the population.
     
  19. RHDSyay

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    The current population at evenings both servers together is around 5000, so that's a 66% decrease which is actually not that bad, every single game will have initial surge of new players that will fade over time when they decide whether they like the game or not. Yes, population has been decreasing, but I believe it will grow once Summer ends (people on vacation, going outside etc.) and once we get into a few more updates (more content like LoA, mby raised XP rate, newbie buffs, etc.) that will bring back the people who left due the hardcorness or who lack content.

    That's not an RMTer or nolifers fault. And this is already fixed, more zones have been added like Alligators Island as alternative for people to level and more will be added with time.

    No, there are XP parties for all kinds of levels, and so is PvP and action, some more casual people might not experience clan vs clan PvP, but normal party vs party is definitely going to happen sooner or later, be it in Orc Barracks, Cruma or DV.

    I don't get your logic here. If nolifers are so much ahead of everyone else, how are they a problem? You don't even meet them if you are lvling in Cruma as 40 while they are 20 levels ahead of you in DV/EV.

    Do you even know the demographics of Lineage 2 players? 80% from Eastern Europe side (Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania), then other 20% like Brazil, Greece, Baltics, US. That would be very dumb to ban the biggest audience, also those Russians who left at start of L2 Ru Classic might give a second chance at EU.
     
  20. Orcoso

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    I think we can just solve this topic by banning kuragari, that will solve all the problems from my point of view, but wont do **** from his point of view and will reduce this foruns activity, which isnt good for the company running the forums.

    that is a good analogy that can make you understand right?

    no one is arguing with you saying rmt and no lifes are good for the game, we are just saying that is how it always worked, and banning and entire country just because some might rmt, or limit the ingame time just cuz you dont want the others to play is a dumb idea.



    I remember back in the day when so called "top players" wouldnt be able to beat our clan/party they would call us ebayers, botter and report us. But trying to ban an entire country just cuz you can't compete is whole new level of stupidity
     
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