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Experiment 130 Influence of DEX and STR on Archer’s skills

Discussion in 'Latest Experiments' started by Yumi, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. Yumi

    Yumi Innova Group

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    Influence of DEX and STR on Archer’s skills

    [​IMG]

    Goal: to check an influence of DEX (dexterity) and STR (strength) on Archer’s skills.

    Attacker: Yul Sagittarius (105 lvl) having all skills, but without any buffs. Equipment : Amaranthine Thrower [​IMG] and Eternal Light Armor Set (Enhance Type) [​IMG].

    Target: NPC Clarissa
    During this test, the skills Pinpoint Shot [​IMG], Multiple Arrow [​IMG] and Quick Shot [​IMG] were used with different character’s stats. You can find the results in the table below.



    Skills

    STR 105
    DEX 55

    STR 200
    DEX 55

    STR 105
    DEX 110
    [​IMG]
    Pinpoint Shot​

    18​

    15,5​

    34,5​
    [​IMG]
    Multiple Arrow​

    17,5​

    19​

    35​
    [​IMG]
    Quick Shot​

    17​

    16,5​

    36​
    Result: this test shows that even a considerable increase of the STR has not influenced Skill Critical Rate; however, the DEX augmentation affected it a lot.
     
  2. Seivlas

    Seivlas User

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    I'm sorry, but what is the point of this experiment ? I'm totally for experiments and stuff, and I really missed them, but I mean, come on. We know that STR doesn't affect skill crit rate, it's even written what the stats does on the ncwest front page of goddess :eek:

    And dex affecting crit rate is written in the passive skill description : "Speed and P skill critical rate change depending on DEX". (description of light armor mastery).

    A usefull information would have been to check a 1min dps (same buffs) on a STR built yul, and a DEX built yul, spamming only pinpoint shot (so it takes in account the instant reuse of str), to have some revelant information for raw power+instant reuse vs critical rate skill
     
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  3. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    easiest way to keep ppl shut (so they see that "progress" is going) is to copy paste from ru experiments and translate it ^^
     
  4. cantorre

    cantorre User

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    We learned by how much the crit rate can be increased.
    What could be more helpful is to make these tests for more "normal" values, like reaching 200 STR on yul for now is impossible. Max is what, 165? Also any average yul has at least 70 DEX or so. So can the test be completed by these two values (150 STR and 75 DEX)?
    Thanks
     
  5. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    5dex increase skill crit rate by 1.5-1.8%, str doesnt affect it at all, so having 75dex crit will be 22-24%
     
  6. cantorre

    cantorre User

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    How do you know that?
    Othell experiments showed that increase is not linear at all. I would expect the same for yul
     
  7. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    I think the main question is always the same: better DEX or STR base?
    It depends of how many critical you gain and how many power you lose so imo is important to know what is the exact effect of skill critical rate boost.
    I found this test which shows the basic critial value of quick shot is 7,7 % critical with 55 DEX and 13,7% with 85 DEX
    http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=266485
    the main question is: how the noble focus (from ability point) gain this %?
    it's +10% on basic skill critic value? So considering 85 DEX is 13,7% + 10% = 15,1 % (round) ?
    If this is the critical calculation we can start to change the value of DEX or enchent skill on focus or anything else to get the correct value..isn't so?
    Following the test on the link we see quick shot has 16,3% critic with 100 DEX. In this case if we add +10% of noble focus we get = 18% critic rate
    If it's correct we gain 4,3% going from 85 DEX to 100 DEX. Is this correct?

    Thanks for answer
     
  8. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    thats very old test in nc.. it was made i believe in tauti update or smth like that, checking newer tests about dex on archer/dagger its noticable that crit values +- doubled (on base stat) but gain from dex remained the same
    but about calculation u are correct, if having 15% base on 55dex, increase dex u get lets say 20% crit chance, then with noble will be 22, with skill crit from sa will be 24 (22+(20*10%)) and so on
     
  9. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    so here start other questions like:

    which ways are the bonus added?

    I mean now we're adding % step by step but is this the right way?

    I give an example:

    consider 10% critical rate like basic value of a skill

    now we're adding % this way: +10% due to +15 DEX, +10% due to noble focus, +10% due to skill focus enchant, +30% due to a buff (speaking generally)

    The result is:

    10(skill value) + 10(DEX) = 11

    11 + 10(noble focus) = 12,1

    12,1 + 10(focus skill enchant) = 13,3

    13,3 + 30(buff) = 17,3


    so starting from 10% we get 17,3% with these boost.


    But maybe the calculation is made this way:

    consider 10% critical rate like basic value of a skill

    consider the complessive bonus as 10(DEX)+10(noblefocus)+10(skill enchant)+30(buff) = 60%

    10 + 60(summ of bonuses) = 16


    so starting from 10% we get 16% with these way to boost.


    What is the correct one? I think the second one because it is not influenced by the order of the bonuses add
     
  10. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    dex is counted into base value...
    lets say u have 55 dex, base crit value is 16%
    100 dex base crit value is 35


    now calculation goes:
    base (what u have with only dex) +mod1(base*noble 10%)+mod2 (base*sa)+mod3 (base*augu) and so on
    so it will be 16% base(only counting dex) + 1.6( base 16*noble 10%) + 1.6(base 16*sa 10%) +1.6(base 16*augment 10(of whatever) = 16+4.8

    everything adds to base, and every modifier count seperately from base crit rate

    there is no "base base" like u mentioned 10%... base is dex acumulated crit rate.. with 0 dex u will crit 0
     
  11. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    this is the perfect answer of how critical rate works, many thanks. Now a very important information is about the % of more critical rate per DEX point.

    I know it's not a linear incrementation so for example it's something like:

    DEX 84 = 20%

    DEX 85 = 20,3%

    DEX 86 = 20,8%

    DEX 87 = 21,2%

    DEX 88 = 21,9%

    DEX 89 = 22,7%

    DEX 90 = 25%


    In this example we have a big jump from 89 to 90 so knowing this, if i'm at 85 DEX I boost that just if I reach 90 DEX otherwise is not so significant and maybe is better boost STR. Do you know where to find these value?


    Same history for STR, it should be good to know if there are particular value to have to get best mix of STR (dmg) and DEX (critical)


    This is my main doubt because I'd like to set my char for oly (I'm LE) and I've 84 DEX and 142 STR (+15 STR + 15 CHA DYE) with full equip and epics (blessed valakas/anthy + tauty + earth ring + livindor) and i see my dmg is very low compared to other yul (10k vs 16 +or-) and don't know if boost the DEX to 99 or stay this way with 142 STR (-15 STR will be 127 and I'm already too low with dmg). Will the critical rate gain be better than stay with more dmg?

    Ability point all on knight with skill critic rate and dmg +10%, atk speed 9%, attribute +50, skill cooldown 5%, stun resist 10%, accuracy +16 and hidden skill very useful to fo far from attacker. In oly i use wizard harmony with both my buff on -10% skill cooldown so total 20% my buff + 5% ap + 20% wizard buff. I spam skill as hell but If i get a good critic from DE STR based I cry! My bow is dark amarantine with -10% pvp passive dmg received, my skill all on break enchant and my self buff on p.def and -% critical dmg. Can't see what to do better D:

    Talisman all top with lvl 4 abundance too and jewel emerald, opal, ruby, diamond, obsidian liv 5
     
  12. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    if u have 150+ str everything over 150 is good for dex, if u dont have 150 then dex base and all boosting str...
    and dont compare dark elf with white elf..
    those 2 are like water and limonade.. 1 is strong since 101 skill boosts crit power alot, and other is weaker but better with crits since 101 skill gives more crit rate
    either way 150str is must have (if cant make 150 still all should go there),oly and open field is diferent story, in 1 u need more skill resets (like oly) in another need more crits (so good archers mix 1 dex dye (usualy))
    btw earth wyrm is pointless for archer (only that atk speed helps, since crit dmg from jewels doesnt add dmg from skills) baium is way better (but lower mdef)


    from 1 side its not linear from other its linear.. since its "korean random" based stat which is by chance it doesnt mean that with 200 dex and everything on skill crit chance u gona crit 100%, or same goes without anything u gona crit 0 times..
    its linear but each x0 - x5 gives biger boost (for example 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.6(for 5th step a bit more)

    having 55 dex u can sometimes crit more than person with 90dex, same goes with auto attack, u can observe sometimes u crit 10 or 20 crits in a row, and sometimes it misses 10-20 in a row having 500 crit (which suposed to be 50% crit chance of auto attack)
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  13. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    Thanks for reply.

    I'm not sure I've understand all but is for my english lack :)

    Are you saying if I'm under 150 STR I have to put all on STR? If so, it's what I've done (more skill reset and more power)

    If i was over 150 STR I should put the rest on DEX right? (not my case but just to check if I've understand)

    So I'm ok with all on STR (142 for a LE is quite good i think) for oly? And maybe +10 STR +5 DEX on open field?


    If I've understood all ok and you think the ability point on knight as I've done are ok...well...How about skill enchant? Break is still good? Or better power? (not skill focus i think)
     
  14. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    mostly skill focus
    if have skills which are +10 only(or lower) make some tests to see what suits u better(like 10*10 hits to npc/friend in coliseum(+count the dmg to see which one is better focus or break), since change enchant path is cheap (just after +11 is kinda harder cause of books)

    ability points is up to you totaly.. depends on each ones gear and play style.. some take atributes and skill cooldown, some take patk and hp and 2nd stun from diferent tree
     
  15. cantorre

    cantorre User

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    actually there is a parallel experiment here
    https://4gameforum.com/threads/560423/
    which doesnt confirm ur theory. Actually I dont know of any L2 stat that would be additive like u say, most or all stats are multipliers, so be careful with ur statements
    ur example is tested in experiment I provided and somehow from 16% base given all 3 boosts u mentioned it sums up to 26% (so 16+10) which means there is no simple equation for it (or the experiment was wrong somehow)

    @Zeitgeist I think ur confusing something. STR wont affect ur dmg on archer much, if u focus on oly, go maximum STR to get best chance of skill crits (afaik there are no experiments researching corelation between STR and skill reset for archer, so you need to max it out to be sure or invest time and adena to make ur own test, which is always the best choice :p ). If u go only open pvp, then this experiments has all the answers u can find - at 110 DEX u have about 35% skill crit rate. So what is better? Get 101 skill crit more often, or crit skills more often? Its ur choice.
    About ur dmg being low, I think ur looking in the wrong area. It depends who u compared ur dmg with, but if with any of the top server archers, then itemwise you simply need a +14 bow / 103 lvl / skills +20 to get any signifficant dmg boost (provided items u mentioned that u have). Or u watched a hero archer with hero berk
     
  16. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    once again this skill crit is based on chance... and 1 time u can crit 20 in a row, other time u can miss 20 in a row
    lets look at that test from other perspective lets say take all 5 columns of no bonus and say he was lucky to hit bigest amount on each 200 (43x5 = 215)
    and with bonuses he was unlucky and hited all 5 colums at lowest count (45x5 = 225) that would mean all bonuses added 10crits on 1000 hit? :)...
    1000 hits is alot, but its not enough to determinate it for sure that it ads those 60%.. i saw that test i also was confused.. but speaking with ppl from ru servers who can make tests with their own adena(not counting it) and can confirm that more dex is better, but dont need to forget about str also and dont go +15dex, +dex hats/bracelets and so on(but i wouldn't roll out that option if u dont go oly at all)..
    Mar 9, 2016
    and what ever formula u gona add to those 16% (including those 3 10% bonuses) idk how to end up with 26%
     
  17. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    Hi, I'm more confused now after what you said:

    "...go maximum STR to get best chance of skill crits (afaik there are no experiments researching corelation between STR and skill reset for archer..."

    I was sure was DEX influencing critical rate like explained on passive skill. Same for skill reset which is specified it's influenced by STR value...it's all described on passive yul skill.

    After you say:

    "...at 110 DEX u have about 35% skill crit rate..."

    How you know? Just from test or you know a different way to calculate skill critic rate? Why you don't think is (base*bonus) + (base*bonus) + etc ? Do you know a different formula or else?

    "...So what is better? Get 101 skill crit more often, or crit skills more often? Its ur choice...."

    Here you say: 101 skill crit more often/crit skill more often and it's the same to me....maybe I'm not goon on understanding english :)


    Btw i have +19 Bow and +20 skill so is quite expensive to change the skill enchant. This was the reason to know the math operation for critical rate, because we can get certain % without spend money. Maybe I'll test on tornado skill the focus enchant and the power (now is break) because this one is not a very strong skill so maybe break is unusefun and is better have more power or more focus.


    The point remains: do someone knows the critical rate calculation to avoid waste time on test and waste of money?
     
  18. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  19. Zeitgeist

    Zeitgeist User

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    I can't understand the test on russian but I think it confirm the DEX influence the critical rate.
    So the "formula" to get the % of critical is base*boost + base*boost + etc?

    What you mean for "+19bow stop gathering info being from nc ^^" ? I have dark amarantine bow pvp damage up + focus + 19 enchant + -10%pvp damage received...what is the doubt?

    About what you were sayng before...i was right?
    .....
    Are you saying if I'm under 150 STR I have to put all on STR? If so, it's what I've done (more skill reset and more power)

    If i was over 150 STR I should put the rest on DEX right? (not my case but just to check if I've understand)

    So I'm ok with all on STR (142 for a LE is quite good i think) for oly? And maybe +10 STR +5 DEX on open field?


    If I've understood all ok and you think the ability point on knight as I've done are ok...well...How about skill enchant? Break is still good? Or better power? (not skill focus i think)
    .....
     
  20. cmec1

    cmec1 User

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    if u are white elf (low str base) go all str untill u reach 150, and after u can start stacking dex (dark elfs can reach smth like 165+- str now)
    if u go oly go full str, that power it adds its not that big (ofc comparing with 105 str base its alot on 140+, but 5 str doesnt give so much power and its basicly done for skill reset, to be able to aoe few times in a row without waiting for skill cd)


    about bow+19... we dont have such bows in core (atleast i dont know any of that kind) rusians have 2 and its +20 both didnt hear about +19 either.. so only presumtion is that u are from american servers where boting is "legal" and ppl were farming destruction enchants for years.. and runing with +20 bows